Fixing the restrooms and other design problems is going to cost Oconee County $2 million, of which it will have recovered about half by suing a now-defunct architect. One big problem, per Spartanburg’s WSPA, is that “ADA requires toilets to measure 18 inches from the center of the bowl to the wall” and some of the courthouse toilets were mistakenly built at 19 inches instead.
“If they were mounted in the floor like the one at your house, you could just put in an offset flange and slide it over one inch to be in compliance,” says [county facilities director] Julian. “But since it’s mounted into the wall, all of the plumbing runs up through the wall.”
Which means the entire wall will have to be torn out and all of the plumbing shifted over — one inch.
More on courthouses and accessibility here.
13 Comments
Is that Okonee County, SC facilities director a moron, or just acting like one? First, the differences in measurement from the requirements are de minimus. Second, if the dimension is really critical and “the mountain won’t come to Muhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain.” You simply build up the wall behind the toilet one inch with wonderboard and a new layer of tile. fini!
Moving a stall wall fro a 5′ stall width instead of 4′ is also no big deal.
The lack of a ramp seems as if it a bona fide violation.
So, the whole retrofit job should run about $10K.
You forgot the cost of paying the lawyers.
Bob
I’m with VMS on this. Blaming the ADA is bull. And I would go as far as to suggest that they are using the ADA to excuse them buying a $500 hammer, if you will. They don’t have to spend that much, but they want to, for some reason. I bet if people look into it, they will find some shenanigans somewhere. Its like that 500K payout to Sherrod—it just doesn’t smell right.
That being said, it would seem that making our courthouses accessible to the disabled would be basic. How can we say that we are offering justice for all, when only some can even come through the courthouse door. Now there is a stage where this can get ridiculous. In fact, VMS has identified it. But even before the ADA the community had a moral obligation to make the place accessible to the handicapped.
Clemson Engineering?
While VMS may think he has the solution, in fact he doesn’t. It is a very big deal to change a 4 foot stall into a 5 foot stall. Everything from new stall doors, new walls, new supports, etc have to be reordered and reinstalled.
While I agree with Aaron that this is not the fault of the ADA, it does show how the ADA is so complex and cumbersome that it is not understood by architects, construction engineers and the town’s own building inspectors.
A friend of mine who does architectural drawings has commented that the ADA has more regulations than the actual building codes.
There is something wrong with that.
The stall width I can understand, but can someone explain the 18″ distance versus the 19″ distance?
I have always thought that ADA was totally overboard on it’s requirements. I had to layout a computer lab for a community college. I could never understand why every computer had to be wheelchair accessable in a lab on the second floor of a building with no elevators? The building was grandfathered somehow to not have to comply with ADA unless major renovations were done. All of this for a campus that never had more than 5 students in wheelchairs. “Political Correctness Disclaimer” No classes were taught in this lab, and there were over 200 fully accessable computers on campus.
“it does show how the ADA is so complex and cumbersome that it is not understood by architects, construction engineers and the town’s own building inspectors. ”
I know. It’s like the instructions for my refrigerator which specified that there must be 5 inches clearance between the back of the unit and the wall. How was I supposed to know that meant 4 inches was inadequate clearance?
In this case the numbers are even larger – 18 and 19. How is a mere architecht or PE supposed to figure out the difference between them?
No, the wall needs to be furred out an inch and re-tiled. It’s not a big deal if they don’t want to make it so.
The 18 vs 19 inches issue is BS, though. ADA is full of “guidelines” like this. The law stated they were guidelines, and they’re written and drawn like guidelines, but the courts have interpret them as iron clad engineering standards.
Most of the guidelines were set as rules of thumb, as “good enough” average figures to be interpreted by design professionals. The toilet needs to be far enough from the wall to allow access. How far? “Awww, lets set it a foot and a half.” Do you think anyone but a lawsuit leech can tell if the can is 18 or 19 inches from the wall? Would 18-1/2 inches be too much? How about 18-1/16? 18.0000000001? The person who wrote the guideline literally did not care, and the courts are not smart enough to know.
I have a wisearsed solution for these cases. Send a “jury’ of twelve suitably handicapped people to inspect the item in question. Don’t tell them what the defect, if any, is. If they rule it is OK, then throw out the suit on a ballistic arc.
We have a big problem with handicap ramps and lawyers going around with digital levels to find a lawsuit if the ramp is too steep. We’ve actually pulled out ramps and replaced them with curbs, because the grades could not be met without rebuilding the street. We’ve failed one ramp and not another because of a difference of 1/2 percent grade. You can literally not see the difference without a digital level.
I had another wisearsed solution for those. Send the judge out for a day to build handicapped ramps. He won’t have to do any real work, just pretend, and I’ll buy him a pair of jeans and a nasty T shirt. The Mexicans will feed him – they’re good guys. He’ll learn a thing or two, have a nice day off, and eat some great tacos. Of course, it’ll never happen.
Frank,
In this case the numbers are even larger – 18 and 19. How is a mere architecht or PE supposed to figure out the difference between them?
Most code enforcement people can look at something and say “that isn’t right.” Most people who build buildings can look at a stud and say that it is 16″ on center vs 15.5 inches on center.
When you have 4 groups of professionals and none of them caught these discrepancies, that indicates to me that in some cases, the ADA is so complex, that no one can understand it or correct it by sight.
Dennis,
No, the wall needs to be furred out an inch and re-tiled. It’s not a big deal if they don’t want to make it so.
No, they can’t. The distance in question is the distance from the side wall to the center of the bowl, not the distance from the center of the bowl to the back wall. (http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig30a.html )
If you fir the side wall out (even assuming that you could with the type of stall walls used) the added one inch now makes the overall stall width an inch too small.
Question: how did people with wheelchairs get into courthouses before ADA?
Note that there were “93 violations of ADA requirements.” Sure, some of the rules are complex. Maybe some need to be revised and modified. But we are discussing 93 violations which were designed by a licensed professional whose job it is to conform his design to the applicable regulations. This seems to be an extreme example nonetheless.
Then you consider Haiti. Without enforced building codes, Port au Prince was completely destroyed by an earthquake with tremendous loss of life. What could have been a minor disaster turned into a major disaster. Much of the world is without reasonable enforced standards for habitation, sanitation, transportation and other common and necessary activities. Despite the claims that our rules and regulations are killing us, the US is a safer and happier place — and more successful and wealthy and sought after for residency and investing — because it has good, reasonable enforced regulations which control risk, make outcomes predictable, and provide transparency. The occasional story of excess does not change the fact that the system works well. If you really doubt this, you can move to and live in the Third World — and, perhaps, die like a dog in a Haitian earthquake.
because it has good, reasonable enforced regulations which control risk, make outcomes predictable, and provide transparency.
You mean regulations like the CPSIA? You consider them reasonable? How about the new regulation that is about to be passed which requires any renovation of a home to include a charging station for an electric car? Is that reasonable? How about the new regulations for contractors that require a certification when cutting holes into buildings or building mechanicals? Here in my neck of the woods, plumbers, contractors, HVAC repair / installations, etc are all required to take a course on lead paint. Only problem is that the county in which I live has no lead paint. None. Never has. So people are forced to take a course for which there is no use. Still think that is a good regulation?
Do you know Paul that in the state of Florida, if you purchase a new front entry door, the door has to be installed by a licensed professional? Even if the door is going back on the same frame with the same hinges, it has to be installed by a professional. So instead of a 30 minute do it yourself job, doors now cost $15 0 – $200 to install. It isn’t the labor that is expensive, it is the licensing.
Still think that is a good outcome?
ADA regs have nothing to do with building codes. It’s about access. Buildings that don’t meet ADA regs aren’t going to fall down unless they don’t meet building codes. You’d think that if you had at least one entrance, one courtroom, and one bathroom (maybe unisex, maybe one of each) that were disabled accessible you’d be okay, but many of these regs require that everything be accessible. I am disabled, but not wheelchair bound. I do have a “rollator” wheeled walker thing with a seat that I use sometimes. The biggest problem I have is when there is a long line for the ladies’ room and I have to let other people in front of me while I wait for the non disabled person to vacate the handicapped stall…