107 Comments

We are all Zeks now.

John Derbyshire asked on NRO, will we be required to build our own camps?

If this is part of the Socialist attmept to be “fair”, how about requiring that all recipients of welfare perform community service? Wouldn’t that be fair? If a producer can be required to work more hours and take home less money, is he not being required to perform community service by default? If there are to be requirements placed on people to perform work, why not start with those who are not currently working or going to school. Ooops, never mind…this whole line of inquiry is rascist…I’ll find my own way to the camps, thanks.

I think my child’s community service will be to stand by the school door in the morning protesting government forced labor and petitioning for slavery to again be made illegal. That seems to be a valuable community service.

I think we need a new slogan for national service. How about, “Strength through Joy!”

Oh wait….

I will spend my time in jail eating off the government and watching TV. No, I will not serve any community services; services that I have already paid for. Did you read in todays paper that gun sales have been extremely strong this week? There is a reason for that.

I’m just an engineer and not a lawyer, but don’t they justify conscription due to Congress’constitutional mandate to raise armies? Army’s break things and kill people, they don’t clean bedpans. The juror analogy doesn’t seem to work very well. It’s a random lottery and you can get out of it easily.

If the President elect is saying that he is going to go against the Constitution, you don’t think that is worthwhile to talk about or even plan opposition to it now?

Come on, all he’ll need to do is whip up a signing statement and he won’t be bound by the constitution or any other pesky law. Worked for W.

A] I am glad to see that the government knows better than parents how kids should spend their time
B] Who decides what service meets the required 50 hours. What if a high school student supports a ban on abortion because they life begins at conception so they want to work with a pro-life non-profit group. Will that be approved as community service?
C] When did I start living in a country where the government started mandating how I should spend my time? No matter how much people disliked Bush he never told people how to live their lives.

This is a very slippery slope.

Mr. Obama,

Good luck trying to get me to do something I don’t want to do without using military or police action. That’s what it will come to sir if you choose to go down this path.

I work for myself and no one else. That’s my right – as an American. I know things like basic freedoms annoy the hell out of liberals but they either need to get ready for a fight or learn to accept they do not own me with fuzzy language and calls for “community”.

Perhaps we can dragoon some honor student to teach matt proper spelling and punctuation.

I’m opposed to national service requirements, but if compulsory military service doesn’t violate the 13th amendment, how would civilian service do so?

It does, but that isn’t the real problem — that’s the the philosophical rationalization used to justify the draft: the concept of “duty”. That is the moral premise to check, if you really wish to oppose servitude. But central as it is to the rationalizations involved in the Supreme Court case permitting military conscription, you aren’t going to be able to make any headway against the Obama servitude plans without working to reverse that 20th century equivalent of the Dredd Scott decision which establishes the precedent.

The Left has known this ever since that decision went down, and the day may soon be coming for them to make use of the legal weapon the conservatives have handed them.

It’s time to reject “duty” and the ethic of servitude from whence it comes, and stand up for the principle of individual rights.

[…] have been at an all-time high this week? There is a reason for that, but that is another subject. “Community service”? Yep, mandatory Coyote Blog: Taxing People With No Money Coyote Blog: Massive Campaign to Bring Back Indentured […]

Jerry: two wrongs don’t make a right. President Bush infringed liberally on civil liberties, which is part of why his party was defeated Tuesday. This is the sort of thing I’d like Democrats to repudiate, not embrace as their own.

I volunteer in my community, but the idea of being _told_ to do it by the government is revolting. How I spend my time on this Earth, provided I’m not hurting others, is absolutely none of the federal government’s business.

well, I suppose if they PAY the Volunteers that it won’t violate the Geneva conventions on forced labor of prisoners.

Service to the State!

I have to agree with Matt. Isn’t it a little early to start criticizing Obama. I mean we’ve waited until after the election. Why can’t we all just wait until Obama has served his term as President for life before we start criticizing him?

Didn’t we fight some sort of war over involuntary servitude? Just wondering…

Interesting — the first time I clicked the link I got a page saying was is quoted here — service is required. However when I went to that page from the change.gov homepage I got this page that says “….. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.”

Now when I click the link I get the “new” page yet when I find the cached page on Google it has the original “required” wording.

Looks like they caught their “mistake”. Now will the real plan please step forward — goal or required. (Although the way government sets goals, they often wind up looking like requirements so maybe the two aren’t all that different.)

Ugh! I see card check made the page too. He may be the president elect but I don’t have to like his plans!

So.. The first Black President of the United States wants to violate the 13th Amendment?

The Irony, she makes the head asplode..

This might have quite the opposite effect of what the leftists are hoping.

Let me tell you how I became a strong conservative (previously a ‘neutral’ on politics).

When I started my MBA program (in 1999, age 25), part of our 1-week orientation included a day where we have to go do ‘community service’ in ‘poor areas’ (inner city Detroit, in this case). My task constituted giving out free boxes of cereal to welfare recipients.

I immediately noticed that all of the women were fat, arrived in cars, and were free on a weekday afternoon. Their faces exuded ‘entitlement’ rather than ‘gratitude’.

After we returned to the University, we had to each share how we felt about interacting with those ‘less fortunate than us’. Note that many of the students were International students, from countries where serious poverty is pervasive, and the poor people are actually emaciated and in tattered clothing. Me, and a few others, lied about how it was ‘eye-opening’ and ‘sobering’. Afterwards, we bitched/laughed about how absurd the whole thing was. I actually apologized to some of the Indian/Brazilian/Chinese students about the silliness of the American definition of ‘poverty’ being foisted on them. They, having been in the US for only a few days up to that point, were baffled by the whole surreal spectacle.

That essentially put me on the path to conservatism. I am a firebrand self-reliance advocate. This is exactly the opposite of what the creators of that module of our MBA orientation may have hoped for.

The Obama-Jugend. That neat “O” salute is fitting.

James:

Good questions re: the 13th Amendment. The answer is, as it usually is, “original meaning.”

The draft doesn’t violate the Amendment today because the folks who ratified the 13th Amendment didn’t think that it did back then. Same thing for jury service.

But there was no such thing as ACORN registration drives, or that kind of “community service” back then.

No, Jerry, you are misrepresenting the way that W used signing statements.

Matt, I didn’t know that Barack Obama had issued a decree that proposals that he’d put on his own website could not be discussed until January 20th, 2009.

The thing we are reacting to is the explicit mandatory nature of his proposal. “Work Will Make You Free” sounds better in the original german.

You may be interested to know that after the publicity, the Change.com website altered the language on the web page from “require” to “setting a goal.”

If you want to see the original language, plus links to online cache images, then compare with the NEW, sanitized language, go here:

http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?entryid=804

No, Jerry, you are misrepresenting the way that W used signing statements.

Not that much. But I was being sarcastic (easy to do with the many ways W tried to subvert the constitution). I don’t expect that any service goal would be required, certainly not if the courts rule otherwise.

Jerry,

Is it your idea that because Bush subverted the Constitution, it’s okay for Obama to do it too? I don’t see why anything Bush did or didn’t do is relevant here.

While I agree with #11’s sentiments–jail time over Obama time–the results are the same: picking up trash along the side of the road. Since Comrade Obama’s plan if for juveniles, picking the passive resistance cum incarceration cum raod crew route at least won’t result in a lasting criminal record.

Well, now Obama’s website is magically changing, that’s the only change we’ve caught Obama actually accomplishing.

Jerry, actually you are that much. Matches that whole “subverting” the constitution silliness.

Again, I really think that putting young people through shitty experiences, in return for nothing, will create a generation of free-market conservatives and militant libertarians.

This was discussed at length weeks ago on one of the law blogs (Volokh?).

The choices to serve will exclude Sunday school / synagogue nursery duty and similar volunteerism. The “community service” must be a type approved by the government. Private school and home schools would not be included.

This would create an unbelievably huge bureacracy of record keeping and supervision.

To add this burden financially and time wise to school systems is bizarre and very ill conceived.

As someone over there (Volokh)commented — there is irony in that the first “black” president wants to reinstitute slavery in a federalized form.

If I had a kid in school I would refuse or pull the kid out.

I do have a college age kid who I would have refuse the bribe.

This is social engineering at its worst.

[…] an eventful night here: after Glenn Reynolds linked to my item on the Obama transition website and the plans it outlined for mandatory national service, upwards […]

“The choices to serve will exclude Sunday school / synagogue nursery duty and similar volunteerism. The “community service” must be a type approved by the government. Private school and home schools would not be included.
This would create an unbelievably huge bureacracy of record keeping and supervision.”

This was part of my point earlier.

a) accounting for participation would require more “transparency” of student records to non academic eyes. While they can jiggle things to avoid the letter of FERPA they could be dancing right at the corners of the box spirit wise.

b) if it’s true that the state must identify the list of acceptable benefactors of volunteering, then that not only removes the spectrum of choices to an enlistee/conscript, thus eroding the spirit of volunteerism, but also makes it prey to rabid politicization. The earlier dig on ACORN by AK and RJ isn’t an unreasonable forecast.

This is beyond a dumb idea.

[…] Independence, via Instapundit), for however  long it lasts.  After that, there’s a copy at Overlawyered (again via […]

poop that should read “list of acceptable beneficiaries…” (or should I say pay-me-backs)

why thank you john so happy we are ready to boil this down to petty insults

Folks,
Re: The record keeping for the community service will fall on teachers and guidance counselors at the middle and high schools. We have more and more dumped on us every year! We already are required to track the progress of special ed students after high school graduation – after high school graduation! Why is that the responsibility of the school system? Federal Law, NCLB.

wait a sec, can he really mandate this?! it can’t possibly pass, can it? I mean, it can snowball from here, from school kids to working people, forced to take time off to do community work? or a parent forced to do service elsewhere? (peacecorp?) and what kind of community work is he talking about? are we gonna lay off gov’t workers and go scrape up roadkill for a few days? pick up dog crap in the parks?

I grew up a 4h kid doing volunteer community svc…. now it sounds like mandatory volunteer work. hmm… dr. obvious??

Re: The record keeping for the community service will fall on teachers and guidance counselors at the middle and high schools.

In Florida, there already is a requirement for “community service” in order to pass to the next grade or graduate. It is up to the students to present a paper with the hours worked, where, and have a signature from a verifable source as to the veracity of the paper submitted. It is, quite simply, a pass / fail thing for the teacher. In that the papers aren’t returned at the same time, the amount of time spent by the teachers is not that great.

That being said, the idea itself is still wrong. When, where, and how I choose to volunteer is my choice and my choice alone. If the government is requiring it, it is not “volunteerism.”

I agree, kids that want to should volunteer. I will not see my kids “forced” into service. This is not the People Republic of America

Yea, i have been hearing a lot about this. And there is NO WAY that Obama and his administration could force people to “volunteer” / do community service. The liberal illuminati want us to think that Obama is for the young people but i tell you what, this would be a real fast way to tick off those young people. I think it would be a good idea to give incentives for people to do community service. They and get people involved but there is no way you can force them.

Obama / Change.gov pulled a very similar “switcheroo” regarding his plan to provide “middle class tax relief”. First I saw it yesterday this tax relief was to be funded by imposing “windfall profit taxes” on oil companies. But now the tone has been significantly softened.

Change.gov was quietly modified in the same way as the “america serves” plan.

Anybody out there happen to get a screen shot of this?

ENTIRE Change.gov Agenda has been taken down. Been down since at least 10:15pm EST.

Good God, I feel like I’m about to become a character in “Atlas Shrugged”

[…] it. The Obama information ministry also removed all of the links from the change.gov website.. “Community service”? Yep, mandatory (Update: they’ve revised) […]

Yes, I agree that all the college students will be singing a different tune. I’m in college, and there are still not enough hours to get everything I want done.
My school has a requirement of 13hrs personal development and 13 hrs service learning in order to graduate. There are students who have issues getting these 26 hours over four years. 100 a year will make everyone extremely happy… :/

This community service program is likely to be comprised of little actual service of any kind coupled with hours of collectivist indeoctrination. Because government is organizing and running it all, they also can supervise and point out those people that the state might need to take “sepcial action” against for not “getting it”. Be afraid….

There are college students who have trouble getting in 6 or 7 hours of community service each *year*?

I’m not in favor of community service requirements, but surely we can agree that most students in this country ought to be doing more volunteer work than that, on their own initiative!

but surely we can agree that most students in this country ought to be doing more volunteer work than that, on their own initiative!

That would depend on what the definition of “volunteer work” is, wouldn’t it?

Does the time someone gives at the local “Committee to Overthrow the Government” office qualify as “volunteering?” Does the person who marches in protests against abortion qualify as “volunteering?” Does some part time college student who works full time, and then comes home to babysit their siblings while the parent goes to work the night shift qualify as “volunteering?” What about the kid who wants to help a local small grocery store and volunteers his time there because the owner can’t afford another person?

The point I am trying to make is that if someone is going to have to define the causes for which someone can volunteer, that definition is going to be based on their moral standards and not the standards of the person volunteering.

If the idea of the program is to help the community and expose the students to as many ideas and challenges as possible, what the student wants to experience may not be the same as someone sitting in a Washington office.

The second problem is that “volunteering” loses some luster when the person is being compensated for it. Whether that compensation is in the form of a requirement to pass a grade, get out of college, or a tax break, it is still compensation.

Lastly, in the Obama proposal (and I know you are against it) there is something wrong with a person working 100 hours and receiving a $4000 tax credit. That breaks down to $40 an hour, which is a pretty nice piece of change. There is something morally wrong, in my opinion, to someone who is being compensated more per hour for “volunteering” than someone who is bringing home $30,000 a year.

gitarcarver: Nicely stated. Would it fit the criteria of the “Plan” for community service to include volunteering at a NARAL march? Or would it also be sufficient to volunteer at NRLC (pro-life group)? How about Weather Underground re-Education events?

Does anyone think that political activity–whether trying to overthrow the government, or marching for or against abortion–constitutes volunteer work? Or that mandatory service requirements–for school, say, or for a criminal conviction–constitute volunteer work?

These feel like straw-man arguments to me, but maybe I’m just not familiar with advocates for those positions.

The reason I said “most” college students was precisely because I realize there are some students who are so stretched, with the need to work long hours, that they can’t volunteer even 6 or 7 hours a year.

As for Obama’s proposal, he isn’t suggesting a $4,000 tax credit in exchange for community service work. The tax credit is for higher education, and an additional requirement would be a minimum of community service.