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The Higher Education Bubble is particularly evident in law schools, and even more so with the notorious fake job placement statistics that they give naive potential applicants.

Quite a number of graduates of lower tier law schools will never achieve the income they hoped for. At least a few will never even work as attorneys, other than as a side job.

And those massive student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy. These law school graduates will be debt slaves for the rest of their lives. For such unfortunate graduates, law school is the worst decision of their lives.

I am not sure if this young lady has a case, but I do feel sympathy for her.

I find it hard to believe she did not know that she needed a bachelor’s degree before starting law school. It is graduate school, after all, which implies that it’s for graduates. And when I applied many years ago, I believe the admissions materials made it very clear that one needed to have an undergraduate degree before beginning law school.

If she has learned not to believe everything People in Authority have promised her, then she has learned something very valuable and is not due a refund. If she has not learned that, then she has not been paying attention and that’s not the school’s fault.

Bob

Wow. Just…

I have no words. I really don’t. Unis nowadays are in a Catch 22. You didn’t admit me, I SUE! You shouldn’t have admitted me, I SUE!

Is “Lincoln Memorial University” an accredited institution? According to the Wikipedia they have no ABA accreditation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Memorial_University

I suspect this is more of a reaction to realizing she may have a worthless degree, and using any argument she can think of to get her money back.

Actually, each year, a number of people have some issues getting admitted because they technically don’t have an undergraduate degree, because their undergraduate degree was subsumed by a masters/PhD, MD, or MBA program (this is especially true for students who were educated abroad).  You’d think that there would be a sort of automatic “lesser included degree” exception; but, no, apparently every new case is an unprecedented surprise.

Law Professor Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit.com) suggests allowing student loans to be discharged after a period of time (say 6 years) in which the degree in question has proven itself to be worthless.

Justice demands, in my opinion, that we outlaw student loan debt slavery.

Professor Reynolds goes on to suggest that the debt, or part of the debt, return to the educational institution which issued aforementioned worthless degree. The good professor believes that we would see a near miraculous immediate reform in the US educational system.

This reminds me of the old Grouch Marx joke: I don’t want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member.

At least we can all sleep soundly with the knowledge, as exampled by this frivolity, that law students are being adequately prepared to practice law in these United States.

I think this can easily be summed up:

“She chose…poorly.”

indeed Jay. Maybe a successful lawsuit against your law school should be a requirement for entry to the bar, rather than a law degree 🙂

@Robert: “Is “Lincoln Memorial University” an accredited institution? ”
No. FYI, it is the “Duncan School of Law ” of Lincoln Memorial University which is not accredited by the American Bar Association. DSL is suing the ABA over that, and lost a Motion for Preliminary Injunction to make the ABA accredit it during the pendency of the suit. Lincoln Memorial University Duncan School of Law v. The American Bar Association, 2012 WL 137851 (E.D. Tenn. Jan. 18, 2012). Plaintiff has renewed its motion. See Spurned law school renews courtroom attack on ABA, by Karen Sloan, The National Law Journal (Feb. 9, 2012), http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/legaltimes/PubArticleLT.jsp?id=1202541841888&Spurned_law_school_renews_courtroom_attack_on_ABA&slreturn=1

An interesting issue about the student’s suit is whether she must prove that she is ineligible to take the bar exam in all states, or only in Tennessee. As the cited decision explaines, there are 5 states in which people who have graduated from non-ABA accredited law schools can take the bar exam: Tennessee, West Virginia, Alabama, New York and California. The student graduated from Penn State, which makes her connections to Tennessee a little weaker. Her suit does not allege that she cannot take the bar exam in the other 4 states, or why she must take it only in Tennessee. Also, she does not apparently allege that she has petitioned the Tenn. Board of Bar Examiners, or those of another state, to waive the requirement to have a B.A. before starting law school. There are a number of schoools which have or had combined undergrad-J.D. programs (Baylor and LSU are 2 I know which have done this), and it would interesting if the Tenn. Board has ever refused a grad of such a program the opportunity to sit for the bar exam because s/he graduated from a combined degree program (and so necessarily started law school before receiving a Bachelor’s degree).

(semi) Smart Dude,
Student loans are not “slavery”, they are a choice, and in many cases a bad choice I agree, but a choice nonetheless. Would you outlaw all bad choices?
I see “designer” purses selling for $1000. A terrible choice in my mind, but it should not be outlawed for those that want to spend (waste) their money that way.

mike,

Unlike any other debt I know of (I’m sure there are others, but probably not pointed directly towards 18 year olds) a student loan cannot be forgiven in a bankruptcy . So maybe slavery isn’t the right choice of words, but it comes pretty close under the circumstances. Because under the circumstances of trying to go to the college of their choice many an 18 y/o cannot see the forest for the trees, much less conceive of what kind of debt problems they will have in just a few years. Is not this why laws were passed to prevent/eliminate credit card companies from targeting the very same group?

Bumper et al

Debt serfdom. Indentured servitude.

Bumper – actually, I believe taxes owed to the IRS aren’t dischargeable. Do you know any 18 year old’s that are too stupid to pay the tax man? Should they get a pass because they can’t see the forest for the trees in paying their fair share? (smirks).

Bumper: If they’re old enough to sign up to charge across a beach into machine gun fire, they’re old enough to understand the consequences of student loan debt. Quit infantilizing those that just reached the age of majority. If anything, some examples need to be made. Quit trying to let off those that make fool choices – they need to pay the consequences of them as an example of what happens when you mess up.

Also consider that perhaps they shouldn’t go “to the college of their choice”, especially if it’s an expensive one*. Hell, I didn’t. I probably could have gone to MIT for my engineering degree, heck I would have LOVED to….but it never crossed my mind to actually try since it was TOO DARN EXPENSIVE. Instead, I stayed at home, commuted on the bus and went to the University of State Where I Live for a tiny fraction of the cost. Cost is ALWAYS a consideration, period.

But hey – lets not leave out the biggest enabler in the student loan / college / law school bubble, your Federal Government. If they ever get the heck out of the student loan business, things will settle into a far more sustainable equilibrium in only a couple of years. Magically, prices will be dropping across the board as Big University all the sudden has to offer value that corresponds to the price they charge.

* – the “genius” profiled in the NYT who went to NYU for the double degree in Women’s Studies and Religion is a classic example. She ended up 100k in the hole. Instead, she should have gone to community college, then transferred to in state 4 year school for the final 2 years if she really had to pursue that particular course of study.

Now she can add the cost of a lawsuit to her already mountainous debt, but at some point the crushing weight of debt ceases to add more pain. She is already past that point, so apparently she feels there is nothing to lose. I’ve heard that “nothing to lose” song played so often WRT lawyers.

Just your basic “run-of-the-mill” reply to:

No Name Guy 02.21.12 at 7:43 pm
Bumper et al

“Debt serfdom. Indentured servitude.”

Agreed, I said it was a bad choice of words, but the effect is the same.

“Bumper – actually, I believe taxes owed to the IRS aren’t dischargeable. Do you know any 18 year old’s that are too stupid to pay the tax man? Should they get a pass because they can’t see the forest for the trees in paying their fair share? (smirks).”

I have of known a lots of 18 to 30 y/o who think they can cheat the tax man. Never said they should get a free pass, just they are getting a raw deal.

“Bumper: If they’re old enough to sign up to charge across a beach into machine gun fire, they’re old enough to understand the consequences of student loan debt. Quit infantilizing those that just reached the age of majority. If anything, some examples need to be made. Quit trying to let off those that make fool choices – they need to pay the consequences of them as an example of what happens when you mess up.”

Apparently you know very little about the age of maturity vs. majority. The government’s desire to have fresh meat for the military vs. knowing what they just got themselves into over going to college doesn’t hold water. Nor do you apparently know anything about kids, if you did and you were once the “shot at” then your callous comparison of death to debt says it all.

“Also consider that perhaps they shouldn’t go “to the college of their choice”, especially if it’s an expensive one*. Hell, I didn’t. I probably could have gone to MIT for my engineering degree, heck I would have LOVED to….but it never crossed my mind to actually try since it was TOO DARN EXPENSIVE. Instead, I stayed at home, commuted on the bus and went to the University of State Where I Live for a tiny fraction of the cost. Cost is ALWAYS a consideration, period.”

Agreed, and now we have insight to your anger against the man. You didn’t get what you wanted as a child so neither should anyone else.

“But hey – lets not leave out the biggest enabler in the student loan / college / law school bubble, your Federal Government. If they ever get the heck out of the student loan business, things will settle into a far more sustainable equilibrium in only a couple of years. Magically, prices will be dropping across the board as Big University all the sudden has to offer value that corresponds to the price they charge.”

Total agreement on this point. I had a “discussion” with the CEO of the local BC/BS just last week. Anyone with half a mind can track the increasing cost of medical care to the mindless intervention of government. He didn’t see it that way, but didn’t refute the facts either.

“* – the “genius” profiled in the NYT who went to NYU for the double degree in Women’s Studies and Religion is a classic example. She ended up 100k in the hole. Instead, she should have gone to community college, then transferred to in state 4 year school for the final 2 years if she really had to pursue that particular course of study.”

Hindsight is an exact science. And you make my first point for me. 18 y/o’s don’t always make the best decisions. But you sound like you are from the government when you think you know better for a person you don’t even know. OTOH exactly what are Women’s Studies and Religion? And why would anyone think they could earn a living armed with such knowledge.

So let me recap, 18 y/o kids are not mature enough to realize that even armed with a college degree they may not earn enough to pay back the cost of the loan that it took to get same said degree. Especially when the admissions department of every college that accepts federal money makes it incredibly easy to get that loan. That access of a similar nature was taken away from the credit card companies.

Bumper, “some” 18 year olds are not mature enough to understand they wont be able to pay off their loans. I paid off mine.
So what is your solution? allow the least mature students to avoid paying their debt by declaring bankruptcy? Doesnt seem fair to me.
“Better” I think is what was mentioned above, stop the fed from insuring the loans. What bank would have loaned this girl $100K without gov insurance? None.
But this penalizes responsible people like me. therefore “best” is to let her suffer in her debt and make sure she tells all her friends about it. So that less people do it. Poeple dont change behavior unless there are consequences.

Best

Obviously, this is a silly claim.

You guys love hitting softballs. Someone should write a screed comment opposing murder.

Does the mere existence of the suit prove the underlying facts she would need to win? Perhaps it will create a hole in the space-time continuum.